Posts by defender of truth

40

I went to see my Dr about the blood card issue

by purrpurr in

i booked a double appointment so that she wouldn't be rushed.

i explained that i'd been brought up in the jw's and woken up to what a load of shite it was.

i explained that they have changed the blood card and that the elders in the cong are being told to effectively force people into signing it.

defender of truth

Well done, Purrpurr. I'm amazed by how you handled that. :)

"forcing people to sign this thing against their own wishes"

OldHippie: That is not exactly true, is it? I have not signed a card in my whole life, and nobody has objected or commented.
Sir89: "Coerced" is probably the better term.

I agree with Sir89. Coercion, not forced.

Bear in mind though, OldHippie, there is going to be a different situation for each Witness.

Some Secretaries will chase up any in there group who haven't given them a copy of this new document. Especially if you are unlucky enough to have the Secretary as your group's elder!!

Imagine, they pass you the form, and weeks later you haven't given them a signed copy to go in the congregation file... Don't tell me they wouldn't notice. :(

Finally, how much freedom do people living at home have to make this decision?

In my case, as a born-in, as soon as I was old enough to sign it, my parents and grandparents basically gave me the form, said I needed two witnesses at the next meeting to watch me sign it, then watched me do it and checked over the form to see I had filled it in correctly. (you may now have more of an idea of what my family is like.)

Congregations and families, in many cases, are very close-knit.

Social pressure is extraordinary in this religion.

Experiences will vary, but young adults living at home will have little say in this. Unless they want to risk major fights or getting reported to elders, many people living at home will be pressured to sign it, whereas they may have never got around to it before or not bothered to update it every few years.

Remember, there is no justification in a Jw's mind for not having one, to not have one is like toying with disobeying God and losing out on everlasting life.

p.s. Just remembered, my family even bought me a highly visible see through keyring with my card in it, and told me I should wear it all times on my house keys.

Depending on how caring/controlling one's congregation or family is, some will be coerced...

It is this arrangement where the elders hand them out to everyone in their group, and the announced reminder of giving copies to those who witness you signing it, that bothers me.

Also, each secretary will be fully aware of who has the new card, congregations are not that big. (at least here in the UK.)

I hope that some can slip through the cracks without getting unwanted attention.

Or do what PurrPurr did. ;)

20

Lurking JWs: Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

by Island Man in

watchtower puts forth the argument that you can't really know god unless you know and use the appellation "jehovah" or its equivalent in other languages.

is this really true?

i say it's not true and i will demonstrate to you why.. god's name is not a mere label that we have to use to communicate with him so that he knows we're talking to him.

defender of truth

For example, the gospels show that Jesus never directly addressed God in prayer with the name "Jehovah". He always addressed him as "Father".

Great point, and one that completely debunks the whole JW concept that: 'God gave us his name in the Bible, therefore we must use it when we speak about him, and when we speak to him'.

It's simple, really.

How many people talk to their human father using his name?

At some point, your dad will have told you his name.

Let's say your Dad told you his name is Bill.

Do you then feel obligated to use his name every time you speak to him? Or every time you speak to people about him?

(My father Bill is great. Bill is wonderful. I really love Bill.)

Would that even be respectful?

Would it indicate love and respect if you were to call him anything other than Papa, Dad, Father etc.? (variations of terms meaning 'Father' may depend on your country, you get the point.)

Even if your Dad accepts you calling him Bill all the time, would he then refuse to listen to any of his other children unless they also called him Bill when they spoke to him?

No loving father would do that.

Why Should We Use God's Name? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
1. Why has God given himself a name?
Undoubtedly, you like to be called by your personal name rather than by a title, such as “man,” “mister,” “madam,” or “woman.” A name helps to distinguish you as an individual. God is called by such titles as “Sovereign Lord,” “God Almighty,” and “Grand Creator.” (Genesis 15:2; 17:1; Ecclesiastes 12:1) But he has also given himself a name to help us to establish a personal relationship with him. In English, God’s personal name is Jehovah.—Read Isaiah 42:8.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012412

Let me highlight the childish logic used here:

"Undoubtedly, you like to be called by your personal name rather than by a title, such as “man,” “mister,” “madam,” or “woman.” A name helps to distinguish you as an individual."

Undoubtedly, you would like to be called by your personal name when your children are speaking to you...

No?

Of course not.

"Son, I would like you to call me Bill from now on. No more of this Father or Papa nonsense. It is not acceptable to talk to me without using my personal name" ;)

A 'title' (or non-personal name, depending on how you view the word) such as Dad, or Pa, would do just fine.

Wouldn't you agree?

www.someecards.com/life/fathers-day/dad-daddy-pa-pop-or-father-a-guide-to-titles-for-new-fathers/

The logic used in that Watchtower only works if you are just talking to a friend, not to a parent.

You would usually call a buddy from school or work by their first name. Obviously.

But would you talk to your parents using their personal name?

Even if you viewed your father as a close friend, and he had told you his name, you still would likely not call him by his personal name.

Even if you chose to do so, and he accepted that, there would certainly be no obligation to do so.

It is not as though you have more than one Father, so you need to use his name to avoid any confusion.

Yet Jehovah's Witnesses claim that anyone who doesn't use the personal name of their Heavenly Father, like they do, is not a true worshipper!

Sorry for the long post. :)

7

more from ARC

by zeb in

royal commission hosts criminal justice public roundtablesthe royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse is holding a series of public roundtables in april to discuss a range of criminal justice issues with invited participants.

the public roundtables follow march’s public hearing into criminal justice issues.

royal commission chief executive officer philip reed said the public roundtables will discuss adult sex offender treatment programs, director of public prosecution’s (dpp) oversight and complaint mechanisms and reporting offences.“these roundtables will invite comment and discussion from a range of participants, including police, public prosecutors, criminal justice policy officials, academic and practitioner experts and others,” mr reed said.“consultation through these public roundtables will help inform the royal commission’s criminal justice policy work,” mr reed said.

defender of truth

Thank you for sharing this Zeb.

Also, thanks for what you have done in relation to the ARC in the past. Good to see you back posting again. :)

The first public roundtable will discuss criminal offence for failing to report child sexual abuse, including the issue of blind reporting, where the alleged victim’s name or identifying details are not given to police.

This part particularly should be watched closely by someone in the organization. Maybe Vincent Toole?

I'll just leave these quotes here as a reminder:

Spinks said he had been made aware of this in these hearings and the church would accept and comply with mandatory reporting, “regardless of our strongly held religious belief that individuals should have the right to decide what is done with that information”.
He said when there were mandatory reporting requirements with some sort of uniformity across the country “we will happily and willingly comply”.
McClellan pointed out that uniform laws were not yet in place and they would differ from state to state but they would impose “a criminal sanction on a person who knows [about an abuse crime] and does not report”.
Spinks said he understood that.
McClellan said the church needed to have a very good look maybe with the help of the church’s lawyers at what the law provides.
www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/04/jehovahs-witness-church-says-it-will-comply-with-mandatory-reporting-of-child-abuse

Vincent Toole, head of the church's Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, told the commission he would seek independent legal advice about the church's obligations to report child sex abuse to the authorities.
Justice McClellan asked Mr Toole if he understood there was a general obligation for every citizen to report crimes to the authorities.
"Coming to this commission has been a wake-up call for me, I can assure you," Mr Toole said.
"Immediately [when] this particular hearing is over, we're going to instruct senior independent counsel and ask them to give us clear legal advice what the position is throughout Australia . . . any obligations that arise in relation to those laws we will certainly comply with."
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/royal-commission-jehovahs-witnesses-to-review-approach-to-sex-abuse-allegations-20150805-gis2fh.html

87

Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley

by cofty in

yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.

on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.

there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.

defender of truth

I absolutely love this reasoning by Cofty here. From the OP:

Me - If I was to tell you that I had read lots of stuff written by ex-JWs, I had never read any of your books, but I had decided that your religion was all wrong would that be fair?
John - No
Me - In fact if I did that it would be intellectually dishonest wouldn't it?
John - (awkward silence)
Me - You are out here dismissing evolution but you admit you haven't ever read a single word of the evidence. Is that honest?

6

Bible Visit

by Michelle in

jw
friends

is anyone here from imus cavite?

i need someone come to our house.

i need someone to invite my father.

defender of truth

To whoever disliked my post, please re-read the thread and think again.

I am only trying to help her. Maybe someone hit the wrong button, it doesn't matter. ;)

6

Bible Visit

by Michelle in

jw
friends

is anyone here from imus cavite?

i need someone come to our house.

i need someone to invite my father.

defender of truth

Hi Michelle. Welcome. :)

Paul Grundy, who made a site called jwfacts has a wife who is Philipino. She served as a Jehovah's Witnesses there. Maybe you will have met her?

He might be able to help you with any information you need.

Please send email to:

[email protected]

I hope that helps you. ;)

(I don't expect there will be any more posts after this, but you might ignore them if there are.

Please ignore jookbeard and Fayedunaway.

Anybody can post here, some are not Jehovah's Witnesses.)

87

Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley

by cofty in

yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.

on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.

there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.

defender of truth

Great job, Cofty. I always enjoy your stories.

You should write a book. ;)

He had been attracted into the organisation by the '75 excitement so he had some sympathy. He tried to claim that GB had never said anything definite about '75 but I was able to give him a few quotes from memory.

For anyone wanting '75 quotes and audio clips, read the whole of this thread:

www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/447280003/bbc-interview-about-1975-never-heard-this-before

12

Judgement in Watch Tower Appeal in Otuo v Morley and Watch Tower by Sir David Eady

by akromo in

[home] [databases] [world law] [multidatabase search] [help] [feedback].

england and wales high court (queen's bench division) decisions.

you are here: bailii >> databases >> england and wales high court (queen's bench division) decisions >> otuo v morley & anor [2015] ewhc 1839 (qb) (26 june 2015) url: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/ewhc/qb/2015/1839.html cite as: [2015] ewhc 1839 (qb).

defender of truth

defender of truth 8 hours ago
akromo, if I remember correctly, you said somewhere that the letter charging him with fraud was destroyed?

Akromo: "DoT see pars. 16 and 19 of Sir David Eady judgement. They were in court to produce it but they said it had been destroyed. The judge was not impressed."

Sorry about that, I knew I'd read it somewhere before.

How can they hope to win this case? (This is a serious question, not rhetorical.)

By claiming they can declare anyone to be sinful and to be avoided, regardless of the consequences, even without any evidence of the sin?! (fraud in this case).

akromo an hour ago
@jookbeard what do mean by PM?

It stands for Private Message.

13

Would crime rate go up if we were 100% positive this is the only life???

by James Mixon in

no resurrection, no 70 virgins, no 7 millions jw's living for thousand of years, no coming.

back as dog or cat you are dead and done..

defender of truth

For some the promise of an afterlife is their reason for killing in the name of their god...

Great point NVR2L8. While we are on the subject of lives being lost due to belief in an afterlife...

The promise of an afterlife in Paradise has been, I feel, the major factor in the decisions of many Jehovah's Witnesses who have died, or let their children die, because of refusing a blood transfusion.

Also, there seems to be no evidence to support the idea that there's any correllation between lower numbers of people with religious beliefs (which tends to include belief in an afterlife of some kind) and higher crime rates.

If there is any link, it would seem to be in the reverse:

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-84878548/

27

Divisions among ex jw activists

by Truthexplorer in

i just watched a youtube discussion between marc & cora and unwitness.

it was regarding their unhappiness over a few prominent individuals in the ex jw community, one individual in particular.

this individual who on the one hand produces excellent videos highlighting wt issues, yet has been known to peeve a lot of ex jw activists off.

defender of truth

@notsurewheretogo

(I am only taking the time to reply to this because you quoted my post. I think I still need to learn myself, when simply not to comment ;) )

When more than a few people post comments on his site, Redddit or here, with the motive of helping his videos to reach a wider audience or to improve them somehow and get shot down by Cedars consistently because he cannot take any criticism...

So learn from that, and move on. Don't post comments on his site. Don't give him any feedback. Watch the vid, click 'like' maybe, then move on.

That way, everybody's happy. I think.. ;)

I made a kind suggestion on Reddit that to improve his excellent Child Abuse video to reach a wider and more professional audience...

So don't make kind suggestions. Or any suggestions. Just leave him to it.

...when you try and help his goal by suggesting things he views it as a personal attack and has a go back.

So don't try and help him.

...Since then his content has changed dramatically to the point where a JW will say "bitterly mentally diseased apostate" and walk away from his site.

Then do what those hypothetical JW's would do, walk away.

If people stop responding to all that bitterness and insanity (in certain articles), meaning:

not commenting on his site, or making videos to respond to his videos... Both sides of the problem will be resolved.

Again, if you don't like it...

Just walk away.